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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

00:00:02

Alix McCabe: How committed is your company to DEIB?

00:00:05

Clip 1: Let's build a more inclusive workplace and world.

00:00:08

Clip 2: Building an inclusive workplace.

00:00:10

Clip 3: The future of work is equitable and inclusive.

00:00:13

Clip 4: Creating limitless possibilities for everyone.

00:00:16

Alix McCabe: Those four little letters punch way above their weight class in terms of how they affect both business performance and the employee experience.

00:00:24

Josh Saterman: When you have an engaged, a fulfilled and an inspired worker, that singular full-time employee does the job of 2. 25 employees.

00:00:35

Alix McCabe: So why are efforts to build more diverse workplaces still stuck in first gear, or worse yet, going in reverse?

00:00:42

Clip 5: Now the people who were charged with teaching the values of DEI are facing a backlash.

00:00:48

Alix McCabe: It's a complicated question, but we love a challenge. So up it goes on.

00:00:51

Group: Wheel of Risk.

00:00:55

Alix McCabe: Welcome to Wheel of Risk, proudly presented by Allianz Trade. I'm your host, Alix McCabe. On every episode, we spin the wheel to choose a topic and then provide expert insights and actionable advice to help you keep your business solvent, secure, and well ahead of the competition. We have something really special in store for us today. I'm getting my first ever co-host on the podcast. I'm really excited. Clayton Corley is chief of staff for commercial at Allianz Trade in North America. So please put your hands together and let's give Clayton a big Wheel of Risk welcome. Clayton, come on down.

00:01:28

Clayton Corley: Thank you so much, Alix, for the invite. Looking forward to joining this conversation.

00:01:33

Alix McCabe: Thank you so much for being here. I'm glad you could join me. So aside from co-hosting, I do have one other responsibility for you, Clayton. We need you to give the wheel a spin. Can you do that?

00:01:43

Clayton Corley: Yeah, I think I can do that.

00:01:44

Alix McCabe: All right, go for it.

00:01:46

Clayton Corley: Here we go.

00:01:46

Alix McCabe: Oh. Okay. It's a good thing that you do double duty as our DEIB officer because you've landed on The Dynamics of DEIB.

00:01:59

Clayton Corley: Oh, perfect.

00:02:00

Alix McCabe: But you also don't have to tackle this topic alone. We're going to let you call a friend.

00:02:05

Clayton Corley: All right, I think I know the perfect person. Let me go ahead and grab my phone.

00:02:11

Josh Saterman: Hello, this is Josh. Josh Saterman, Saterman Connect.

00:02:14

Clayton Corley: Hey, Josh. It's Clayton. I have a favor to ask you.

00:02:17

Josh Saterman: Of course, Clayton.

00:02:18

Clayton Corley: Will you be willing to jump on a podcast I'm co-hosting about DEIB?

00:02:22

Josh Saterman: Absolutely. I'd love to.

00:02:23

Clayton Corley: I appreciate it. Thank you.

00:02:25

Josh Saterman: We're doing this now?

00:02:26

Clayton Corley: We are. We are.

00:02:27

Alix McCabe: Amazing. Okay, so why don't you head up to the booths and get Josh patched in and we will get this conversation started.

00:02:36

Clayton Corley: This decade has been a time of dramatic change when it comes to DEIB implementation efforts. There was a huge wave of interest in hiring on the hills of the murder of George Floyd in 2020, driving up demand for DEIB roles by 55%.

00:02:50

Alix McCabe: But in the few years that followed, the attrition rate for DEI roles spiked with many organizations, especially in the tech sector, turning to layoffs due to challenging economic conditions. And now it's even become a divisive political issue.

00:03:05

Clayton Corley: So where do we go from here? To help us with that question, it's my pleasure to welcome my friend Josh Saterman to the pod. Josh is the CEO and co-founder of Saterman Connect. Josh, thanks so much for being here.

00:03:18

Josh Saterman: It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Clayton. And thank you, Alix.

00:03:21

Alix McCabe:So before we dive into the discussion, Josh, would you mind giving our listeners a little bit of background about you and your organization?

00:03:29

Josh Saterman: Saterman Connect is an inclusive HR consulting firm. We specialize in leadership development, culture and engagement, and diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging. We're a global organization with a plethora of coaches, faculty members, instructional designers. Really aim to support organizations within the HR, DEIB, and C-suite spectrum.

00:03:53

Alix McCabe: Very well said.

00:03:56

Clayton Corley: The term DEI&B gets used and misused a lot. So let's start with some definitions and establish some common language. So what exactly is DEIB?

00:04:08

Josh Saterman: Great question. DEIB stands for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. Diversity being a fact, equity being about fairness or accessibility, inclusion being a choice, and ultimately belonging is the output of those three inputs. And it's really that sense of feeling, that sense of engagement, sense of fulfillment, sense of being inspired in the workplace. And in this way we connect DEIB to unlock business results. In fact actually, Saterman Connect's mission is to amplify the power of people to unlock and amplify business results. And this is exactly why the power of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging is so meaningful and so poignant in this moment.

00:04:55

Clayton Corley: So Josh, you mentioned the acronym DEIB and its purpose. And something I've been noticing over the years, a lot of people that are against DEIB, they're almost using it as an adjective to explain a person of color, that DEIB person. So for you to explain and provide the definitions of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging hopefully will change some minds for those listeners that are out there.

00:05:20

Josh Saterman: Yeah, perhaps because of what you just said, I would just expand to say, when we talk about diversity, we talk about the full dimensions of diversity. It's not just about race or just about age or orientation or gender. And while we see those specific dimensions of diversity highlighted in the news or highlighted in the rhetoric, what we know to be true is that a full person's dimension of diversity or their intersectionality, that cross-section between all of their diversity is a mix between organizational dimensions, community dimensions, social life dimensions, internal dimensions. And I say oftentimes we talk about with companies large and small that if you have two people that look the same, sound the same in the same room, they are still diverse. I promise you that we can find the diversity in that sameness because what connects us, the power of diversity is that we are all unique.

00:06:19

Alix McCabe: So Josh, how did DEI& B originate and how has it maybe evolved over the years?

00:06:26

Josh Saterman:There's a couple of theories, a couple of different backgrounds. Essentially though, coming out of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, there was a need, especially in the United States, to focus on colorism, racism, and the impacts of that because the systems that have been built over the course of our centuries are grounded unfortunately at times to create inequity within marginalized or underrepresented communities. It started between the Black and white conversations that we've had as a country for generations.

 

It's evolved into other persons of color, other criteria, whether it's immigration, whether it's looking at ageism and the five generations currently in the workplace, women's rights and all that happened that you're now still seeing 52-plus years later. And so you're seeing now the concepts and the groundings of where DEI& B started really evolving into the full ways that our workforce can bring their full selves to work and accomplish business results.

00:07:30

Alix McCabe: We've done some work with you and your team, Josh, and that's one of the things that was really appealing to us was finding ways that our employees can bring their full selves to work and also harnessing the power of DEIB in connection with the business strategy. Right? So where are we at now?

00:07:47

Josh Saterman: It's so interesting the way you just shared that. And what I would share back, Alix, in terms of where we are now and some of the work we've done together is also understanding that the dynamics of people in the workplace have different demands on them. You have elderly parents, you have needs of coworkers, you have commuting, hybrid workplace. All of these factors are now factoring into this idea of inclusion and belonging. And so while diversity's inception came from marginalized or underrepresented communities, one can now start to talk about neurodiversity. You can talk about mental health. These are all the dimensions of diversity that people are taking into the workplace, and that's where we are today.

 

All of those factors lead in to how does a person show up in the workplace and how do they give their all to innovate, to create, to drive business, to think innovatively around how they can create new pockets of revenue source. And that goes back to the marketplace. That goes back to, for any company that's out there today, I would assume that you would not want to limit who your customer base is. And so when we talk about that wide spectrum of marketplace, we talk about having representation in the workplace to be a reflection of the marketplace you wish to serve.

00:09:13

Clayton Corley: So you talked about where are we now? Can you talk about from your perspective, what are the current stumbling blocks or barriers to implementation?

00:09:22

Josh Saterman: I'd love to. We certainly don't have enough time in this podcast to talk about it extensively, but I'll give you a few highlights. Number one is when we talk about stumbling blocks, one of the things that we talk about is there's this propensity out there around what we would call cancel culture. And it's a myth bust. It's a myth bust because folks are going to make mistakes. We are human. So one thing that we can take away in our time together today is be you. Be you, be authentic to you. We all have opportunity to learn.

 

The second part to it is humility. A roadblock out there today is that people get defensive, they feel that they're under attack. And what I would offer is that when we talk about cultural curiosity or cultural humility, what we talk about is this understanding that through growth mindset, thanks to Carol Dweck, author of Growth Mindset, we can take a pause to say, "I'm sorry. I made a mistake. I need to learn from this. How can I learn from this?"

 

And so the best leaders who are inclusive leaders understand that vulnerable leadership is the opportunity. So while we talk about roadblocks or stumbling blocks, one of those stumbling blocks is C-suite leaders, CEOs that are out there, you are the experts in your craft. You might not be the expert on the newest lingo, the newest culturalism, the newest what's happening out in the world. And that doesn't make you deficient. That doesn't make you less than. It makes you human.

And so when we talk about a roadblock, one of the roadblocks that we have out there with five generations in the workplace is this idea that vulnerable leadership somehow makes you weaker when instead, by default it makes you stronger. It makes you more connected to the Millennial and Gen Z generations, the future of our marketplace, and how you can connect.

 

I'd love, Clayton, any thoughts from you around where you see some roadblocks and opportunities?

00:11:19

Clayton Corley: So you touched on the C-suite level. One thing that I've always emphasized was that middle-management level. Being empathetic to the employees that they're leading, making sure that they are at least aware of their unconscious biases and just taking them head on, and being comfortable with being uncomfortable because you will find yourself in spaces where you may not have all of the answers or know how to properly address certain demographics. So I think having that comfort of being uncomfortable and learning and being receptive to feedback is definitely key to support navigating through those barriers.

00:11:59

Alix McCabe: That's an important point to remember. I love this concept of vulnerable leadership. And you just positioned it, Josh, as an opportunity rather than a weakness.

00:12:09

Josh Saterman: Yeah.

00:12:09

Alix McCabe: So what other opportunities or benefits do you see for businesses who really embrace DEIB into the fabric of their strategy?

00:12:19

Josh Saterman: I see cultural competence as a huge opportunity. And what I'm finding with the C-suite members and companies that we have the pleasure of serving is that many times those C-suite leaders are in the realm of critical skills. They are asking open, powerful questions. They are gathering data and details around cultural awareness so that they understand the impact.

 

An example is Juneteenth. Working with global organizations, there are many folks out of the EU or out of the Asian markets that are not 100% aligned to the power and the meaningfulness, especially in the states around Juneteenth. But the learnings of Juneteenth and the awareness of what happened in Texas and that final step many years after 1863 when the Emancipation Proclamation was announced, that awareness factor has many impacts. There are impacts to what does it mean to give freedom, give liberty, give happiness, provide that opportunity to an underrepresented or marginalized community. And so there's lots of lessons that can be learned through cultural competence, and that's a big factor in unlocking the power of your workforce.

00:13:29

Clayton Corley: And Josh, just to add to that, something that I've noticed, when you see companies that are doing DEIB the right way when it comes to their operations, it impacts their bottom line at the end of the day. And when you have a workforce that's diverse, that feels like they are included in these conversations, they're innovating or creating products and services that you may not have received or created prior to their input. And the companies that are doing it not as well is impacting their bottom line as well.

00:14:02

Josh Saterman: Absolutely.

00:14:03

Clayton Corley: You definitely have to find that balance. You can go online and look up examples of prominent organizations that have tried to take advantage of Juneteenth or Pride Month or whatever the case may be, and they do it wrong. Josh, you mentioned that cancel culture, it's almost immediate. It happens when they do it the wrong way, and that's probably because they don't have the right individuals in the room making these decisions.

00:14:26

Josh Saterman: There's a few thoughts that come to mind on this. Number one is time is money, and companies that we work with are not always able to get at the in-between times, right? Not every company's a law firm with billable hours. So I say that because when you think about a retention strategy, your best employees and how you keep them engaged, when you think about the idea of talent acquisition, when you think about the idea of building deep, meaningful relationships with your clients or customers or patients, that's time, that's resources, that's energy. And when you have an engaged workforce, it's not just the rhetoric of you get more innovation. There are many sources from Harvard Business Review to Fortune to Forbes to Entrepreneur that talk about on average when you have an engaged, a fulfilled and an inspired worker, that singular full-time employee does the job of 2. 25 employees.

00:15:27

Alix McCabe: Wow.

00:15:27

Josh Saterman: There is no company out there that I have ever met that says, "I don't want to get more out of my employees." So when you talk about the value of inclusion and belonging, when you talk about the impact of having diversity in the room, if you have employees who are engaged and are part of that community and they talk about the value of what your company brings to the marketplace, you're going to create buy-in. You're going to create brand awareness, brand building. You're going to recruit better talent because they want to be a part of your organization. That is one of the biggest aspects of business case and why having strong understanding of DEIB is critical.

 

The other thing I have to say because we haven't really talked about it yet, but DEIB is a separate competency. It's not a separate function. DEIB is a mentality you bring into your sales function, into your finance function, into the ways that you think about HR. It is about your marketing. And that's why you find that the companies that invest in diversity councils that have direct connection to KPIs or MBOs or OKRs are outperforming their competitors because they understand that to embrace diversity and understand the value of creating equity and the ability to create inclusion and belonging is directly impacting how companies achieve their KPIs and get to results.

00:17:07

Alix McCabe: So getting to results and understanding the dimensions of diversity means that you need to, if you don't have the acumen, you have to find it in some way. So there are people, employees, or just people in the world who don't necessarily have access to communities beyond their own. So how do they gain access to this type of information so that they can diversify?

00:17:32

Josh Saterman: Love that question. First and foremost, just be curious. I tease when I say this, but there's this amazing tool out there. It's called Google.

00:17:41

Alix McCabe: Is it the internet, Josh?

00:17:42

Josh Saterman: It's this thing called the worldwide web. In the days of encyclopedias, if it wasn't located in the encyclopedia, couldn't get, I'm dating myself of course, but encyclopedias were limited because they were of the year. In this case, there's no limit to being able to search. And so at the risk of sounding cheeky, do the work. Just like you do the work to become proficient in sales or marketing or finance or human resources as a function, do the work. Be curious instead of saying, "Where are you from?" That's a popular question, where are you from? Let's change that question. "Hey, can you share with me your story?" What a more powerful way instead of saying, "Oh, I see you're Asian. Where are you from?" What a different approach to be like, "Hey, I'd like to get to know you better. Would you feel comfortable sharing your story with me?"

00:18:29

Clayton Corley: Absolutely, Josh. And something that I'll add is people can see if you're authentic when it comes to your curiosity. So as long as you truly want to understand someone's story, and I love the way that you've framed it because everyone's story is different. If you see me, you can see a Millennial, Black man, living in Baltimore, but I'm from Philadelphia, grew up in a two-parent household. You don't know all of that underneath. You only see visually what you can see. So I think ‘Tell me your story,’ can definitely go a long way.

00:18:59

Josh Saterman: Yeah. And sharing of a story is important because when we talk about diversity, the adages, some of them are really true, like don't judge a book by its cover. You might see that somebody wears glasses or has blue eyes or has long hair, but you don't know if they're a working parent. You don't know their background and identity. You don't know their story on mental health. When you ask a question like where are you from, it's more about you and your curiosity. When you share with somebody and say, "Share with me your story, I'd like to get to know you better," what you're actually doing is making it about them.

 By the way, just to add one more thing to this is some of you out there might say, "Well, I don't want to ask people private or personal questions." But the reality is you're spending more time with your colleagues than you are with sometimes your spouse or your children. So it's a way of meeting people where they're at within their journey, and that's important.

00:19:49

Clayton Corley: Josh, one of the arguments you commonly hear against DEIB initiatives is that they can lead to less qualified people being hired. How do you respond to that claim?

00:19:58

Josh Saterman: I don't want to tokenize or generalize. It's not my intention. I don't want that to be my impact. Most times you speak to somebody and they want to be the qualified candidate. They want access. And so now the question is how are you recruiting? Where are you recruiting? Do you understand what HBCUs, historically Black colleges and universities, are about? I've had many people say, "Oh, well, people who are of African American or Black background, they're not engineers," which is crap because there are universities like N.C. A& T that have amazing engineering programs. Some of the best engineers I've worked with have come from those universities. They are incredible programs.

 

And so part of it is how do you check your own biases around where are you interviewing? How are you interviewing? Who are the people that are within your organization? You're asking to be part of that solution. There is no shame in saying, "I'm underrepresented in this category of community, and it is not a reflection of our marketplace." So if you have 4% in X category and your marketplace is 40% in Y category, then how are you unlocking full innovation within your workforce and workplace to connect more deeply with your marketplace? So that is how to answer that question, Clayton.

00:21:17

Clayton Corley: No, Josh, I love it.

00:21:18

Alix McCabe: I was taking notes.

00:21:21

Josh Saterman: Love that.

00:21:22

Alix McCabe: So Clayton, you yourself have actually been pretty instrumental in helping us at Allianz Trade on our own journey within DEIB. So what have you learned from that experience that other business owners or leaders should know?

00:21:35

Clayton Corley: My experience thus far, it has been amazing. I would say that, we touched on earlier in this conversation, we all have them instinctually, unconscious biases have helped us over the years to survive if you just look at humans over the millennia. But having that comfort once again of being uncomfortable will only allow us to thrive and continue to progress through this journey that we're on when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So if business owners, if CFOs, CEOs that are listening to this right now, if they have that type of mindset, they'll truly thrive when it comes to their own respective journeys.

00:22:13

Josh Saterman: Exactly. Love that, Clayton.

00:22:15

Alix McCabe: Those are good insights. Thank you.

 

Okay guys, that sound means you better remove all metal from your pockets and definitely don't take shelter under any tall trees because it's time for The Lightning Round.

00:22:30

Clayton Corley: Excellent. I know, Josh, you're really excited for this.

00:22:34

Josh Saterman: I am. I love a good lightning round.

00:22:37

Alix McCabe: Okay. So here's how it works. I'm going to throw out three rapid-fire questions all related to DEIB and you'll take turns sharing your responses. And at the end, I will pick a winner. Completely arbitrarily, I will choose and select a winner. Does that sound good?

00:22:54

Josh Saterman: It sounds great.

00:22:54

Clayton Corley: Looking forward to it.

00:22:55

Alix McCabe: All right. So first up is Josh. Okay?

00:22:58

Josh Saterman: Okay.

00:22:59

Alix McCabe: In the context of DEIB, what are your favorite words?

00:23:05

Josh Saterman: Kindness, grace, humility.

00:23:08

Alix McCabe: Ooh, those are good. Clayton.

00:23:12

Clayton Corley: Yeah. For me, I would simply say empathetic.

00:23:15

Alix McCabe: Ah, empathy. Okay. All right, Josh, back to you. Who is your favorite author on the subject of DEIB?

00:23:22

Josh Saterman: I'm going to say Ryan Holiday has written a book called The Obstacle Is the Way, and I am absolutely obsessed with it. I would also say, I have to add two more, Mita Mallick's Reimagine Inclusion, and Lan Phan's Do This Daily. Both quintessential in the space of mental health and DEIB. So The Obstacle Is the Way, Do This Daily, Reimagine Inclusion.

00:23:49

Alix McCabe: I'll have to check those out. Clayton, what about you? Favorite author?

00:23:52

Clayton Corley: Yeah, Josh mentioned Mita Mallick already, but definitely Ibram X. Kendi I think is another author that I truly enjoy along with Ta-Nehisi Coates. Those are two authors that I've gravitated towards over the years.

00:24:06

Josh Saterman: I love those.

00:24:07

Alix McCabe: Everybody can make a reading list. Josh, who is your favorite mentor that you've had in this space?

00:24:14

Josh Saterman: I feel so full of privilege. By the way, another word that has been used in a misunderstanding kind of way, but privilege is advantage, and I have had advantage of having amazing mentors in my life. I have to give deference to Mita Mallick. I have to give honor to Molly Langenstein. I have to give honor to Nicole Cokley. These are amazing women who have an understanding that DEIB is leadership and leadership is DEIB, and they bring truth talk and radical candor and insight, and also my three words. They give grace, kindness, and humility when I've made a mistake or I have an opportunity to learn.

00:24:58

Alix McCabe: Really great qualities in a mentor. For sure.

00:25:00

Josh Saterman: Absolutely.

00:25:01

Alix McCabe: Okay. Over to you, Clayton. Have you had any mentors that have impacted you in this area?

00:25:06

Clayton Corley: Absolutely. And I'll be sure to send her this episode, but Leanne Sims has been a mentor of mine and she gave me my first shot when it comes to a leadership opportunity, just providing me with that experience to lead an employee resource group, an ERG. Some organizations call them associate resource groups. But yeah, she's definitely a mentor of mine that I keep in touch with.

00:25:29

Alix McCabe: Mentors can have such an impact. I've had a few in my own life too.

00:25:33

Clayton Corley: Yeah. Yeah. Alix, what about yours?

00:25:34

Alix McCabe: I am not playing on this game, but actually I do. I have a mentor who I'll mention who actually hired me into Allianz and is no longer with the company. Her name is Leah Maddox. She is an incredible business leader, entrepreneur, a mother, a great friend, and she's someone that I turn to with all of my business challenges and also some personal ones as well. And she's really influenced me a lot in my career and in my life.

00:26:01

Josh Saterman: Alix, I love as we're concluding, I love that the three of us talked about the importance within DEIB of mentorship and sponsorship, of having those advocates in the room for us that could be the voice of us when we weren't present. That's another nice way to wrap up today and just talk about the power of DEIB through the lens of sponsorship and mentorship.

00:26:20

Alix McCabe: Absolutely. That's a great way to put it, Josh. Something that I've benefited from, it sounds like all of us have in our own careers and our own journeys is having those sponsors who will advocate for you when you're not in the room.

00:26:30

Josh Saterman: Love that.

00:26:31

Alix McCabe: Okay, so now I'm tabulating the scores because I'm going to arbitrarily select a winner. I've gone to my scoresheet and I think it's too close to call. So in the spirit of today's conversation, I will declare us all winners, okay? A trophy for everyone.

00:26:46

Josh Saterman: I love it.

00:26:47

Alix McCabe: No one wins, but we all win. How's that?

00:26:50

Clayton Corley: Yay. I love it.

00:26:51

Josh Saterman: I love that. I love that. In this case, I do love that we all get a trophy.

00:26:55

Clayton Corley: A nice participation award. I love it.

00:26:57

Alix McCabe: It's like my children when they play soccer and every single person gets a trophy, every one of them.

00:27:03

Clayton Corley: Before we sign off, I'd also love to leave our listeners with a call to action. So Josh, which resources would you recommend? I know you touched on a few of them throughout our conversation.

00:27:13

Josh Saterman: I actually love Brown Table Talk. Dee Marshall and Mita's podcast on LinkedIn is a great resource for that. I also really love in general that LinkedIn has groups around D& I. I'm also TroopHR. For any of you that are out there that want to immerse yourself in a great community of HR executives, TroopHR. And so lots of resources there. And of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't say satermanconnect.com is also a great resource to learn more about leadership development, culture and engagement, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.

00:27:46

Alix McCabe: Thank you so much, Josh. This has been an inspiring and educational conversation for myself, hopefully for our listeners as well. My sincere thanks to you, Josh, for coming and sharing your insights with us today.

00:27:57

Josh Saterman: Thank you, Clayton and Alix, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

00:28:01

Alix McCabe: And Clayton, my first-ever-co-host, you did amazing. Thank you so much for being here and for all that you do at Allianz Trade.

00:28:07

Clayton Corley: I really appreciate it, Alix.

00:28:11

Alix McCabe: My guests today have been Josh Saterman, the CEO and co-founder of Saterman Connect, and my colleague and co-host, Clayton Corley, Chief of Staff for Commercial at Allianz Trade in North America, and also DEIB officer extraordinaire. I'm Alix McCabe, and this is Wheel of Risk, brought to you by Allianz Trade. Thanks for listening. If you learned something today, and we hope you did, we'd really appreciate if you could leave us a nice review wherever you get your podcasts. Talk to you soon.