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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

00:00:01

Alix McCabe: It's a term and an issue that's impacted corporate America for a long time. The media has reported on it extensively.

00:00:08

AUDIO: A new study reveals eye- opening insights into the barriers to advancement faced by women in the workplace.

00:00:14

Alix McCabe: Politicians have talked about it.

00:00:15

AUDIO: I know we have still not shattered that highest and hardest glass ceiling, but someday, someone will, and hopefully sooner than we might think.

00:00:26

Alix McCabe:  It's even become a common trope in Hollywood.

00:00:35

AUDIO: I've hit the glass ceiling.

One of your own out there every day, crashing the glass ceiling of the tech world.

So this is it, I've hit the glass ceiling.

00:00:36

Alix McCabe: Yes. Even now, more than 45 years since the term glass ceiling was coined, it remains a clear barrier to women in the workplace, and that makes it a topic well worth tackling here on...

00:00:48

Speaker 1: Wheel of Risk!

00:00:52

Alix McCabe: Welcome to Wheel of Risk, proudly presented by Allianz Trade. I'm your host, Alix McCabe. On every episode, we spin the wheel to choose a topic and then provide expert insights and actionable advice to help you keep your business solvent, secure, and well ahead of the competition.

 

Today we're trying something exciting on the podcast. I have not one, but two powerhouse guests joining me for the all- important wheel spin. First, it is my pleasure to introduce speaker, talent coach, author, and the founder of Matuson Consulting, Roberta Matuson.

 

Roberta, welcome to Wheel of Risk.

00:01:24

Roberta Matuson: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

00:01:27

Alix McCabe: We are so excited to have you.

 

And second, I'm thrilled to welcome my longtime friend and colleague and also the CEO for Allianz Trade in the UK and Ireland, Sarah Murrow.

 

Hi, Sarah. Thank you for being here.

00:01:38

Sarah Murrow: Hi, Alix. My pleasure.

00:01:39

Alix McCabe: Okay, so before we go any further, it is time to spin the wheel. So do you guys want to flip a coin for the honors or would you like to tackle it together?

00:01:47

Sarah Murrow: Roberta, I think we should do it together, right?

00:01:49

Roberta Matuson: Absolutely, yep.

00:01:50

Alix McCabe: Okay. It's a team effort. Four hands better than two. All right, go for it.

00:01:55

Sarah Murrow: All right, here we go, Roberta. Ready?

00:01:57

Roberta Matuson: Okay. Yep.

00:01:57

Sarah Murrow: One, two, three! Ugh!

00:02:02

Roberta Matuson: Ooh!

00:02:02

Alix McCabe: That was amazing. That was amazing. That might be one of the best spins I have ever seen.

00:02:07

Roberta Matuson: Oh my gosh.

00:02:09

Alix McCabe: And you just so happened to have landed on a topic that is, I think, perfect for us to tackle together, the three of us. Beyond the glass ceiling: a deep dive on women and leadership.

00:02:18

Roberta Matuson: Wow, I love that.

00:02:19

Sarah Murrow: I know, me too. This is a good one.

00:02:22

Alix McCabe: All right, cue up the Eurythmics and Aretha Franklin. Let's do this.

00:02:25

MUSIC: 'Cause there's something we forgot to say to you.

We say.

Sisters are doin' it for themselves.

00:02:31

Alix McCabe: I can't believe it's been almost 30 years since that song was released, but here we are one quarter of the way through the 21st century, and we still can't declare mission accomplished in the fight for equality. While there have certainly been some successes, women made up only about a quarter of C- suite leaders in 2023 with women of color representing a mere 6%. By any measure, those are pretty dismal numbers. So let's explore why, and maybe we can begin with your own story so our audience can get to know both of you a little bit.

 So Roberta, you've been writing and coaching on this topic for a long time. Tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do.

00:03:07

Roberta Matuson: Well, my story is kind of interesting because it started really, my story started at the age of 24 when I was promoted into the executive suite. I was one of two women, and I actually wound up staying in the executive suite for about six years. And what I didn't realize though is just because you have a seat at the table doesn't mean you have a voice.

 

I thought I was really hot, this was really great, 24 years old, corner office, private parking spot, everything you could ever dream of, but in retrospect, I mean, I was just like every other woman.

00:03:45

Alix McCabe: And so you've done a lot of work in this space, so you've published a few books and you have a company. Tell us a little bit about those if you don't mind.

00:03:50

Roberta Matuson: Sure. I've actually published seven books and the most recent one came out in April, and it's called Suddenly in Charge, and it's the third edition. I have worked with a number of executives from CEOs to mid- level managers in terms of helping them really elevate themselves in the workplace and in their leadership skills so that they can rise in the organization, or if they're at the top, they can lead in a way that people will actually follow them.

00:04:22

Alix McCabe: Okay, that's great. So Sarah, what about you?

00:04:25

Sarah Murrow: Well, Alix, I'm the CEO of Allianz Trade UK and Ireland, I was appointed in June of 2021. Interestingly enough, Allianz Trade in the UK, our origins date back to 1918. We were established after World War I by a part of the UK government who wanted to help promote exporters to rebound the economy. So we have a very rich 106- year history, and I'm really pleased and honored to say that I'm the first woman CEO that's been appointed in that long history. I'm sure there were many other women before me who were qualified enough, who were capable enough to do the job, it just took 100 years for, I think, society to get comfortable with a woman holding the role.

 

Before that, it's been a long journey with Allianz Trade, 20 years, 12 years in the US, a year and a half in Paris working with you, Alix, and then the past seven in the UK. So the expat experience has also been interesting to experience as a woman with a family, and maybe we can talk about that a little bit later. On the personal side, I have a family and two daughters, ages nine and 12.

00:05:23

Alix McCabe: Amazing. Thanks, Sarah. You also created a group for women in the insurance industry. What was the inspiration and the goal for that?

00:05:30

Sarah Murrow: I mean, maybe it was less inspiration, more frustration, which actually started it.

00:05:33

Alix McCabe: Ah.

00:05:34

Sarah Murrow: When I looked around the industry, there was really a lack of equal representation of women in leadership roles, and being a CEO and being privileged enough to lead an initiative and to have people listen to me, I decided to found Women in Credit Insurance UK in February of 2023, and I work alongside 11 other women on the leadership team and we put on activities that focus on networking, training, and mentoring with the purpose of increasing the representation of women in leadership roles in the industry.

00:06:04

Alix McCabe:hat's fantastic.

 

So Roberta, there's an elephant in the room that we should probably address at this point, and it's actually about who isn't in the room with us today. Okay? So you told our producer that you'd prefer to have a man join us for this conversation. Why is that?

00:06:17

Roberta Matuson: Because we're never going to break this ceiling without the people who are holding that ceiling up and holding, in many cases, women back. And so I felt like you, me, and Sarah, we're certainly aligned, but I wanted to know, well, where are the men in all this? And I really wanted to hear their perspective and that's why I'm like, "How come it's just women talking about this?"

00:06:42

Alix McCabe: Well, even if there aren't physically any men present for the conversation, I know that there are plenty who do listen to the podcast. So what would your message to them be?

00:06:50

Roberta Matuson: Wake up. You either have a mother, you might be married to a woman, you might have daughters. I mean, this is not a situation that is just our problem. Eventually, you're going to bump up against this, so the time to really fight for women to be able to move into the roles which they are deserving of is now, and not to wait until, "Oh, this is affecting me personally."

00:07:15

Sarah Murrow: For the men listening to this podcast, I think it's important to bring to their attention just how powerful and influential they are in driving this change. My experience personally, and also what I see around the industry, is that hiring managers have massive impacts on the career development of their staff. And today, men mostly hold those roles as hiring managers, so they have an immense opportunity and also responsibility to help create the right level of equality to help encourage women.

 

When I look personally back at my last three roles, all three have been my existing manager, who happens to be men, promoting me or suggesting me for the role, and it's been incredibly powerful.

00:07:56

Alix McCabe: That's a really good point. I've had a very similar experience in my own career, Sarah, where I've been fortunate to have some advocates who the hiring managers were, in fact, men. And what you say resonates with me really deeply because the hiring manager, male or female, has such a huge impact on affecting change.

00:08:16

Roberta Matuson: I think you're completely right about that, but I also think, in all fairness to the men that are listening, oftentimes women don't ask for these roles. They don't ask for the promotions while their male counterparts on day one are busy lobbying for their next role, and women oftentimes will sit back and say, " My work will speak for itself."

 

When I'm coaching my clients and a lot of the work that I've written talks really about the need to self- promote and to make sure you let your boss know, " This is what I want," and not wait to be tapped.

00:08:51

Sarah Murrow: I completely agree, Roberta. And it's funny, Alix and I actually had the same boss at one point in a time, and this was one of my favorite sayings. He used to say that, "Life is a buffet. No one's going to serve you, so you had to get up and go get what you want." And I love this, and I think it speaks volumes about promoting yourself and going after what you want. If you don't tell people what you want, how are they going to know?

 

So it's super important to broker your own career, and I do think that women more often than not struggle with that because it is self- promotion, and I also find that maybe sometimes when women self- promote, it's frowned upon. It's not as welcomed by society or the business culture as maybe if it were coming from a man.

00:09:29

Alix McCabe: Yeah, I agree.

 

So let's talk a little bit about the glass ceiling itself. Okay? So I mentioned earlier that that's a term that was coined more than 45 years ago. Why do you guys think we're still talking about it in 2024?

00:09:49

Sarah Murrow: Listen, being honest, the glass ceiling is still there, but it's getting thinner and more penetrable. I do think we are making good progress, albeit slow. I think that there are a couple of key reasons why it's still there.

 

First, cultural and structural barriers facing women. I think absolutely women's role in the home, responsibilities to the family not only require them to focus more time outside of the workplace and made more commitment, but I think it's also seen as women not being willing to commit to something in their professional environment.

 

I think that there still is implicit or unconscious bias that exists. I think we all carry a little bit of unconscious bias with us. And I also think, just in general, the work- life balance and lack of role models is still a reason.

00:10:36

Alix McCabe: Roberta, what's your take?

00:10:37

Roberta Matuson: I don't think it's unconscious bias. I think it's conscious bias. They know you're a woman and they know, maybe based on their own experience, that their partner who is a woman might not be able to multitask like you can. So they're just using their own lens in order to justify why they should promote this man over you.

 

And we still have these antiquated values that are out there like, "Oh, well, women aren't the primary breadwinners. We have to give these jobs to the men who are going to support these families." I mean, that stuff, at least here in the United States, really does exist. And until we break that mold and until we're able to say, "Listen, we should all be evaluated based on our skills and the value that we can bring to an organization," we're going to have that ceiling. And I am just shocked that, even today, it's still there and I don't see any thinning, but Sarah, you make me feel hopeful.

00:11:35

Sarah Murrow: Thanks, Roberta. And maybe I can just comment on that in terms of men being the breadwinners. I reference cultural and structural barriers for women. My husband is the primary caregiver for our children, so he has a job, but he works for himself and he works part-time, and I think it's not only challenging for me to have the unusual role, but it's also uncomfortable for him to have the unusual role because he's usually the only dad at drop-off and pick-up every day, so he's not always included in those circles.

 

I think that there are challenges for both men and women in holding the atypical role. So I might be a less-represented woman in the office, but he also struggles within his own networks within school and things like that.

00:12:19

Roberta Matuson: Yeah. I remember, in a previous conversation, you were saying that when the moms are getting together to establish play dates, he's like the odd man out.

00:12:29

Sarah Murrow: He doesn't get invited for coffee after drop-off on Fridays, no.

00:12:32

Alix McCabe: What would you say, maybe Sarah, is still holding women back in your view?

00:12:38

Sarah Murrow: Yeah, so actually, when I created Women in Credit Insurance, the first meeting that I had, I actually ran a survey and I asked a bunch of ladies, the most senior women in the UK credit insurance industry, I asked them this question. I did a word cloud, in fact, and the words in the center were very common and very big, meaning that a lot of women felt the same way: lack of confidence, lack of examples, so you can't be what you can't see, societal norms, and family obligations.

 

What I see is when women decide to start a family and they take that break, however long that break might be, they typically struggle to come back in at the same velocity or the same level that they had when they left. And I know Allianz Trade does a great job in trying to encourage women back and supporting them in that journey, but maybe that isn't common across all businesses.

00:13:23

Alix McCabe: Yeah. I mean, I certainly had a similar experience as you know, Sarah. I mean, I was at a peak point in my career actually working abroad in Paris when I made the decision to start a family. And I was, to be quite honest, nervous about taking the time away to do that, even just for a maternity leave, because of the demands of my career. I was fortunate that our company is a company that does promote bringing women back, supporting women through maternity leave, if they want to take a break, et cetera. But I completely agree with you. I have friends who did not have the same experience at other companies.

 

Roberta, what societal norms need to change if we're going to make progress here?

00:14:01

Roberta Matuson: Well, I think this idea that women have to do it all and should be able to do it all because, in my experience, you can have it all, but just not all at the same time. I know in my case, I have two children and I'm very lucky, I have a spouse who's very supportive of my career, but the bottom line was he was running a dental practice and if a kid got sick, he wasn't going to be able to cancel out his whole day. I had to say, "Oh, sorry. I'm not going to be there today."

 

And the one thing that I did do for myself, which I would encourage every woman or stay-at-home dad to do for themselves, is I negotiated when I had had enough that I would get some help at home. And I think oftentimes, women will just think, "Well, I can do it all. I'm supposed to do it all. I'm a failure if I bring in a nanny one day a week."

00:14:52

Alix McCabe: When I'm asked actually in conversations through mentoring groups that I participate in, "How do you manage it all?" my answer is always, "I don't. I have a network of people that help me." And I think that can be important, whether it's outside help, whether it's your partner, whether it's family. In my own career, that has been really pivotal and I will never stand up in front of a room of people and say, "I just managed it all. I just did it all. I was super-mom and super-career lady." And no, that wasn't the case. And I think maybe being a bit more transparent about that as women in leadership roles would've been beneficial for me to see that type of example as I was coming up in my career.

00:15:31

Sarah Murrow: I think one thing that we really need to see is the government taking more action to help support childcare costs because I think that this is one of the big reasons that women decide to stay home or take on additional childcare responsibility. Maybe not a societal norm, but definitely a government action that needs to be taken to help.

00:15:48

Alix McCabe: Yeah, I agree, and that's actually a good transition into the next area that I wanted to ask you both about, which is the importance of flexible work arrangements. Okay? So in addition to outside childcare, an issue that was spotlighted during the pandemic is the need for more flexible work arrangements, particularly for women. So I wanted to open this question to both of you. How do you feel that flexibility can help women in the workplace?

00:16:13

Sarah Murrow: Yeah. So I recently read in a McKinsey report, McKinsey does pretty good research on women in the workplace, and the report said that one in five women say that flexibility in the workplace had either helped them stay or had avoided them leaving their jobs. So it's clearly a key differentiator and I think we're in a much better position post-COVID than we were pre-COVID in terms of flexibility.

 

I mean, work-from-home has become the norm both in the US and the UK. Currently, within Allianz Trade UK, we have two days work from the office or approximately 10 days a month, so we've increased the flexibility, and we are maintaining that position despite a lot of the financial institutions in London actually asking their employees to come back on more days and/ or full- time, which is quite a shock in terms of the employees that have had that flexibility for a number of years.

 

But there's also job sharing. We have two women that have a job- sharing role here. It's not common, I'm not going to say it is, but these two women share one role and they've worked it out and it works quite well.

00:17:12

Alix McCabe: Roberta, any thoughts on flexible working?

00:17:14

Roberta Matuson: Yeah. I think it's important for both women and men because here we are, we're having this conversation and saying, "We need the men to step up and participate more and maybe not prioritize their jobs over their wives' jobs and things like that," and if only the women are in jobs where they get the flexibility and the men can't work one day from home, then that's just going to put the workload right back on the women and we're not going to get ahead.

 

And I think we've proven during COVID that it doesn't really matter where you are for the majority of jobs. And regarding the job sharing, that is not a new concept, that has been around for years, but what is so interesting is how few companies have actually embraced it. And when you think about it, it's a great move because oftentimes, if you lose a key employee, that's a nightmare, right? How are you going to replace them? But if you've got a backup, like the other half, you can keep driving on two tires, so to speak, until you can safely exit and get another person on board.

00:18:26

Alix McCabe: Roberta, one thing that you've written about is women who choose to exit the corporate world to start their own businesses. Why is that?

00:18:34

Roberta Matuson: Why? Because I think eventually, you get to a place where you realize that if you're going to make it and you want to run a company, it's going to be your own company. It's just how it is. I mean, I did that over 25 years ago. I was like, "This isn't working for me anymore. I'm going to do it my way and I'm going to create my own company so that I can spend time with my family," because I had a family, because I wanted a family, and I wanted to spend time with them, but I also didn't want to exit the workforce.

00:19:08

Alix McCabe: I think it's safe to say, and we were talking about this earlier, that some companies are better at fostering the type of environment where women leaders can succeed than others, right?

 

So Sarah, what is Allianz Trade's approach to inclusivity in your mind?

00:19:22

Sarah Murrow: I've been here for 20 years, and Alix and Roberta, I can honestly say that I have only ever experienced a meritocratic environment. Whoever the best candidate is for the job gets the job. And I think that this is super important because I think we can all agree no woman would want to get a job just because of their gender because all that does is move us back years and years and years. So Allianz Trade has stayed tried and true to that, the best candidate gets the job.

 

Alongside that though, I think that they do recognize that women might need more encouragement to put their hand up for roles or for opportunities, and there are various networks and mentorship programs to help women do that.

00:20:02

Alix McCabe: Yeah, and you and I have both partaken in those programs over the years.

 

So I'd like to kind of pivot the conversation a little bit and talk about how companies can benefit from more women in leadership roles, which I think the three of us would all shake our heads that we still have to make a business case for this, but there are plenty of surveys, news stories, studies that suggest there are big benefits.

 

So Roberta, what's your take?

00:20:23

Roberta Matuson: Well, first of all, if you value education and you believe that that's important, if you consider the fact that there are now more women in universities and colleges than men, well, we should be looking at why are these numbers so off? Right?

 

I think women bring a different perspective. I think we're outstanding at multitasking. I think we have a lot of emotional intelligence. There's a lot of things that we bring to the table, and that's not to say that men don't bring that to the table, but I think if organizations were more fairly balanced and there were a lot more women alongside the men that are at the top, I think these organizations would be much more profitable and more pleasant to work for.

00:21:05

Alix McCabe: Sarah, what do you see as the main perks of having more women in leadership?

00:21:08

Sarah Murrow: Alix, you referenced the studies. Roberta, I'm sure you've read them as well. I mean, diverse leadership teams, not only gender-diverse leadership teams but diversity in terms of leadership, drives higher profitability. It drives innovation because you have different perspectives on how to problem solve. It does create a more supportive and inclusive workplace, providing employees with the feeling of psychological safety, which is also important in terms of bringing your best to the workplace and giving it your all.

 

I think it's also important that businesses remember that we have customers to serve and that our decisions and our leadership should reflect the customers in which we serve to be able to provide the best service.

00:21:48

Alix McCabe: Okay, great. I have one last question for you both before we move on. So Roberta, what steps can women take to be better recognized for their talents in a corporate setting?

00:21:59

Roberta Matuson: Well, we talked about this earlier, but that confidence factor, that's huge. Rather than saying to yourself, "Well, why would they even consider me?" you need to flip that around, like, "They'd be crazy not to consider me." You've got to step up and say, "I have a lot to offer and here is what I can offer," and try to monetize that.

You've got to put the numbers behind it because it's got to make sense for the organization to put you into that role. And making sure that you're asking for that promotion, asking for equitable pay, asking for that raise that you really deserve, and positioning yourself for your next move.

00:22:38

Alix McCabe: That's good advice. Sarah, what would your advice be to women who are trying to accelerate their career?

00:22:44

Sarah Murrow: I think, and I'm making a generalization, I recognize this, but I think women generally watch all of their pots and make sure none of them boil over. They're really managing the optimal performance of all of their pots, but the reality is, day to day, organizations don't necessarily see that you're doing a great job managing things that aren't blowing up. Right? So they typically recognize someone coming in and saving the day or coming up with a big idea.

 

So whenever I mentor women, I say, "Just remember, you need to put your fingerprint on something." So what is the mountain that you're going to move? What is the one thing that people are going to say, "Wow, she took that on, that problem on, and she drove a solution when no one else would"? It's about making an impact and being seen, and again, we come back to this self-promotion idea. So you have to talk about your achievements and that's not necessarily a comfortable place for a lot of women.

00:23:38

Alix McCabe: Whoa. Can you guys feel the electricity in the air at this moment? Because as our studio audience is aware, that sound means only one thing. It is time for the lightning round.

 

Here's how it's going to work. I have here a series of questions, which I'll read to you, along with four possible answers, and I want you each to guess which one is correct.

Does that sound good?

00:23:59

Roberta Matuson: Sure.

00:24:00

Alix McCabe: All right. We have major prizes on the line here. Just kidding. There are zero prizes, actually. It's just bragging rights, but we'll play.

 

Okay, here we go. Question number one. What is the current wage gap between men and women in the United States? Your options are A, 16%, B, 27%, C, 11%, or D, 33%.

00:24:25

Roberta Matuson: I should know this, but I didn't do my homework. I'm going to say C.

00:24:29

Alix McCabe: You're saying C, 11? Okay. Sarah?

00:24:32

Sarah Murrow: I'm saying B, 27. I'm going big.

00:24:35

Alix McCabe: Okay. So as of Equal Pay Day in 2024, which was March 12th, the U. S. Bureau of Labor and Statistics reported that the average woman working full- time year- round is paid 84% of what a man makes in the same situation, or 16% less. So answer there was A.

00:24:57

Sarah Murrow: So neither one of us got it right, Roberta.

00:25:02

Alix McCabe: Correct one.

 

Okay. Question number two. What is the percentage of women in C-suite positions in North America? Options are A, 7%, B 12%, C, 28%, or D, 34%. Sarah, I'll go to you first.

00:25:22

Sarah Murrow: I'm going to go C, 28%.

00:25:24

Alix McCabe: Okay.

00:25:25

Sarah Murrow: Just a gut feeling.

00:25:26

Alix McCabe: Okay. Roberta?

00:25:28

Roberta Matuson: I'm going A all the way.

00:25:30

Alix McCabe: A all the way. 7%? Wow. All right.

 

Answer is, according to the latest Women in the Workplace Report from McKinsey, the proportion of women in executive positions in 2023 was 28%, C, up from just 17% in 2015.

Sarah, you have the correct answer. Congratulations.

00:25:51

Sarah Murrow: I probably read the stat a number of times.

00:25:53

Alix McCabe: Yeah, you might have. It seeped into your brain.

00:25:54

Sarah Murrow: And yes, it was back there somewhere.

00:25:59

Alix McCabe: Okay. Third question. What proportion of female leaders have had a formal mentor assigned to them over the course of their career? This is interesting. A 53%, so more than half, B, 24%, C, 39%, or D, 71%.

Roberta, you want to answer first?

00:26:21

Roberta Matuson: I'm going to go with B because I'm such a pessimist.

00:26:25

Alix McCabe: You're going with B, 24%. Okay. Sarah, what do you think?

00:26:27

Sarah Murrow: I agree with Roberta. I'm going to go 24%.

00:26:30

Alix McCabe: You are both correct.

00:26:31

Roberta Matuson: Oh!

00:26:32

Sarah Murrow: Yeah!

00:26:34

Alix McCabe: According to DDI's latest Women in Leadership Report, an average of only 24% of women have had a formal mentor compared to 30% of men. And that mentorship gap is even wider at the senior leadership level, where 27% versus 38%.

Okay, final question. All right? And so far, we have the score is two for Sarah, one for Roberta. Okay? So this is a really critical, no pressure. How many women are promoted from entry-level positions to management in America for every 100 men? A, 51, B, 72, C, 87, or D, 96.

00:27:14

Roberta Matuson: I'm going to go with 51, but again, maybe I'm just not being optimistic today.

00:27:19

Sarah Murrow: Roberta, I agree with you. I mean, the question is from entry-level positions to management, right? That's quite a stretch.

00:27:24

Alix McCabe: Okay, so you're agreed at 51?

00:27:26

Sarah Murrow: Yes.

00:27:27

Alix McCabe: Okay. Incorrect, ladies.

00:27:30

Roberta Matuson: Ah.

00:27:31

Sarah Murrow: Oh.

00:27:31

Alix McCabe: This is also from a McKinsey study, which found that 87 women, so not as bad as we thought, are promoted to management for every 100 men. The gap is even wider though for women of color at just 73. It's known as the broken rung as opposed to the glass ceiling.

00:27:47

Roberta Matuson: Right, and I think that the next bump up is where the huge gap happens.

00:27:53

Alix McCabe: Where the really big gap exists, yeah. Okay. Well, both of you, amazing jobs. Thank you for humoring me with the quiz that I didn't let you prepare for. Our winner is Sarah, not by a landslide, by one.

00:28:07

Sarah Murrow: By one.

00:28:08

Alix McCabe: We will send you some amazing parting gifts. No, we won't. Unfortunately, we have none. But when I see you both, I'll give you a T-shirt, a Wheel of Risk T-shirt.

00:28:16

Roberta Matuson: I think we should give Sarah more work because obviously she's not busy enough and can handle it all.

00:28:22

Alix McCabe: Yeah, that's exactly what she needs in all of her free time. Oh my goodness.

 

Alas, ladies, that music that we're hearing signals that our time together is almost at an end. This has been a very valuable conversation for me and hopefully for our listeners as well. We still obviously have lots of work to do on this topic, and my sincere thanks to both of you for being here today.

00:28:42

Roberta Matuson: Same here. It's been a pleasure chatting with you.

00:28:44

Sarah Murrow: Thanks for having me on the podcast today.

00:28:49

Alix McCabe: My guests today have been author, speaker, and talent coach, Roberta Matuson, and CEO for UK and Ireland at Allianz Trade, Sarah Murrow.

 

I'm Alix McCabe, and this is Wheel of Risk. Thanks for listening. And to learn more about Allianz Trade's commitment to gender equality, you can check out the strategy and value section on our website at allianz.com. That's A- L- L- I- A- N- Z dot- com. I'd also love to connect with you on LinkedIn. Talk soon.